What's been happening?

[Jigen]

Hello peoples

It's been a while and I'd thought I'd pop in for a sec to see what's been up?

How is everyone? How's the project going? What else have you up lot been too? The usual questions.

Obviously this is more of a shout out to all my Hero6 homies (or however you spell it) rather than a lazy request on an update. I know I can read the forums for myself (and I intend to, but that doesn't really encourage people to talk to ME, now does it?

[PHattiE]

I dunno if the homies are around here anymore. 

This has become another forgotten forum, amoung the millions on the intarweb. 

I too am in the dark on the creation of hero6; but obviously if the new team has any break-throughs worth mentioning, we'll hear about it here.  So I've been lurking

There can only be two options now.  1- the new team completes the game, it goes into beta and released.  2- the new team admits it does not have the motivation to continue, or similarly, that the once-hearty resources have dwindled to a resulting unproductive state.

if #1 happens, I'll be the first to celebrate.

if #2 happens, the game will go through a new development cycle with a new group of people.

The trick to finishing something is to have members who are capable of producing on all fronts.  Reliance on a fickle internet member base is a sure path to doom.

But I don't think I'd ever join a team again.  The problem is that I find most internet "authors" to be uninspiring.  Sure, some game concepts/ideas have positive points of interest; but as a whole, I would not see the idea in movie format, I would not read the idea if it were published in a book, and most importantly, I would not play the idea if it were in a game.  The game idea has to be so good, that it holds up over time-- even a century, in hero6's case. 

This is why I think game projects like these fail.  I call it the "meh" factor.   I wonder what hero6's "meh" factor is, 'cus if it is high, I think we can all be prepared for option #2 happening. 

The pessimistic side of me has to admit that I am unaware of a team member in the hero6 arsenal who is imaginative enough to captivate me. Because, for instance, I wonder what is special about the hero, and why I'd be interested in his story;  what drives the game and grabs my interest to see it through?  Instead I wonder if the story is full of cliche's, unrelatable characters, and novel-sized back history?

The sad truth is, everybody on this planet thinks they have the ability to come up with some cool game stories.  But unlike other mediums like art or music, there is no instant qualification that can be done to measure one's skill at writing fiction.  In fact, some people don't even realize that they are bad at it.  Maybe their writing ability is fine, but their direction and story telling abilities are a bore at best.  Or maybe they lack fundamental ability to image something that the common reader can relate to and care about.

I saw dragon wars this weekend.  That's an example of poor writing.  Sure the movie's concept existed; dragons were battling, LA was getting blown up.. but what a boring movie.   

So that is my ramblings for today. 

PS - I should disclaim that I do not know who is writing hero6's story, and whether it is truly awesome or not (so whoever it is, apologies ), but I will say if the story was good enough to make QFG1-4 look like crap, I would think hero6 would have been released by now.  Consider this: if someone of the caliber of Rowling or King wrote a fantasy game concept, how could it not be finished by now?  I know of nobody with the morality low enough to not see such a concept though to it's completion.

[Paladin0707077]

Oh, tut tut. Surely there must be some aspect of Hero6 that is still there to be interesting? Some quality of it that makes you want to stick it out? It can't all be bad, can it?

[PHattiE]

Well, I have to repeat that I don't know the hero6 story.. and especially over the past year or so:  I haven't been in the development loop AT ALL.  But I've been a member of many other projects, and all of them have not had stories that I considered very cool... sometimes it's in the delivery?  A tale of two kingdoms was kind of fun, but I admit the story was boring enough that I skipped most of the dialogue, and hadn't interest in reading any back story....

[deltamatrix]

Hi,

Well I can tell you Hero6 is still happening. I did some work on it recently. Don't give up on us yet. I recently did some work making prototype new backgrounds.

The extensive backstory was a problem and we have cut back on this for a simpler storyline that the player can understand easier. The plot has been seriously reworked and is being used to implement the game.

So progress is being made I guarantee. Perhaps more progress than ever before now that a better defined plot is in motion.

You got any other questions?   

[Outchanter]

Good to hear it.

I sort of get what you're saying, Phattie, but I'm not sure that game scripting and story writing have all that much in common. A lot of people seem to think the Monkey Island game series is fantastic, but would you want to read the story in book form?

[PHattiE]

I sort of get what you're saying, Phattie, but I'm not sure that game scripting and story writing have all that much in common. A lot of people seem to think the Monkey Island game series is fantastic, but would you want to read the story in book form?

I think the ESSENCE of a story and a game script are identical; but unquestionably a book and a game script are very different otherwise.  I'm simply saying that what makes a book good, and what makes a movie good are the same thing.  I wouldn't want to read Monkey Island as a book, that's true.  But if Schafer, Grossman and Gilbert converted their idea into a book format, I'd want to read it, and I'd want to see it as a movie too... (incidently, there is already a publish novel about monkey island)

Anyway, a story is a story.  A good author definitely has to understand the medium for which they are telling it.  Writing a novel and then trying to make a game out of it would result in a boring game.  But my point is: if your idea/story sucks, it doesn't matter if it is a game, movie, book, or play; it's gonna continue to suck.  The same is true if the story is: bland, unoriginal, uninteresting, cliche, boring, too complex, unrelatable, so-so, etc

There are too many people who read a lot fiction, and then start day dreaming about being an elf, and then start thinking they are good writers.

[deltamatrix]

Monkey Island probably could work as a novel albeit with a lot of changes. Maybe that would reveal the SECRET.

But Hero6 is not going down the novel route. I think we tried to get a complex plot backend but it slowed us down for a long time, hampered progress and caused much confusion within the team. All adventure games require a little backstory but you have to find a good way of getting the player interested if its relevant. And I have little doubt that some of our playtesters will find themselves interested in the available backstory in Hero6 while others may choose to ignore it and skip thru most conversations. Making the game suitable of both types of player will require a careful balance of necessary talk vs necessary action in the game. As a playtester who would prefer to ignore much of the backstory, I think we are on the right track now and development has gone pretty good recently.

[Second]

Well, I have to repeat that I don't know the hero6 story.. and especially over the past year or so:  I haven't been in the development loop AT ALL.  But I've been a member of many other projects, and all of them have not had stories that I considered very cool... sometimes it's in the delivery?  A tale of two kingdoms was kind of fun, but I admit the story was boring enough that I skipped most of the dialogue, and hadn't interest in reading any back story....

I wholeheartedly agree with PHattiE here on what he's saying about (let me apply a tag to it:) "the engaging delivery of a message".

Yahtzee wrote about the importance of storytelling back in 2005. Although he's just repeating the obvious, obviously, I find it extremely important to stress this point whenever adventure games are being made or merely talked about: "We've got this medium we can use to tell and re-tell some of the greatest stories in the world; a medium whose interactive nature possibly adds even more artistic validity, and we're just using it to re-tread old ground and ESCAPE FROM MY HOUSE."

Like Yahtzee's, my personal interest in the adventure game as a genre is its all-encompassing nature. It can bring together "plot" and "narrative" in a way that also engages the spectator. Games are, to me at least, the best compound form of different media. And though games can be seen to be incredibly mature compared to the short history of the videogame, PHattiE's observation regarding the immaturity of the narratives found in adventure games is extremely valid.

My point is this: The word "medium" as a vehicle signifies transmission and conveyance. That's what the adventure game should be perceived as, a vehicle - not a means unto itself. Certainly some genres of games can stand alone fine, altogether without compelling narratives or storylines, but this is because their function is different. We need to educate ourselves of this difference in function and act accordingly. So far, very few of us really know how to make that distinction, we're not talking about it enough.

If we wish for games to be engaging, like art at best is, then us authors need to spread awareness of the true function of the adventure game. Wordsworth writes, in the "Preface to Lyrical Ballads", "Poetry is the first and last of all knowledge—it is as immortal as the heart of man." That's the "it" factor of all writing: We need to tap into that Immortal Heart of Man, turn to whatever "humanity" and "being human" denote (or alternatively, do not) and then convey something essential about it to our friends and players.

I mean, really, how many of us game-creating hopefuls really stop to ask, "Do I have anything to say?"

[Paladin0707077]

<QUOTE>I mean, really, how many of us game-creating hopefuls really stop to ask, "Do I have anything to say?" </QUOTE>

I do. All the time. Why do you think I only did a token attempt at joining here, and for coding at that?
My friends say I have the most powerful imagination they have ever encountered (It's so big we're inside it right now lol), and I've had others label me as "unique", "creative" and "intelligent" and hundreds of points in my life from possibly hundreds of people. So why haven't I written even 1 book or published 1 poem/sonnette, or released 1 song? Or created even 1 flash game 
I have lots of ideas, it's true. But nothing concrete that's either engaging enough to be interesting AND simple enough for my audience to follow. I once did try writing a book in High School. Got to chapter 4, and my Sci-Fi loving English teacher thought it was Fantastic. But I couldn't finish because I had no clue how (That was about 10 years ago and it has since been lost, so don't ask to see it). I just couldn't think of a way to make the chapter understandable without it being boring, so I had to give it up.
But I know I'm (supposedly) creative and that I'm (supposedly) smart, so I continue to ask myself why I haven't made anything yet. And that's always the answer.
But yeah, with Quest for Glory, it's not just the story that inspired people, it was also the gameplay and the concepts. Very rarely, even today, do we get a choice as to how to finish the game. Very rarely do we get to try being "good guys" AND "anti-good guys" (Paladin OR Thief). Very rarely do we, when we create a character in an RPG, do we get to cary over that character to the NEXT game just as we had it before. So in this case, I don't think it is the story alone that carries it so much as the game mechanics and story combined in a meaningfull way.
And actually, I think that would apply with most games, too. I direct your attention to the great-but-flawed Xeno- series (that includes Saga AND Gears, as they BOTH had the same problem). Absolutely excellent story, great character development, and masterful telling...for a book. The game mechanics, though, were not as good (though they were decent, IMHO). Thus, it was called "a great story but mediocre game play" and ended up being placed on the backburner of games.
Quest for Glory's concept is stand-alone and has stood the test of time. It was so great that people actually started making their own when the original developers were given the axe. It combined a good story with a fun way to tell it, and thus got hundreds of thousands to love it in its day.
So yes, while I feel your points about a story are valid and even crutial, I feel that in the case of Hero6, which is built on the concept of QFG, they may not apply as much. These people already have a leg up in that they have the winning game mechanics all worked out. All they have to do is recreate the system they think will be best, and then create a story to fit into it, with side quests to match.
Yes, I know, it's not as easy as 1 2 3, but compared to the other games you mention, I feel that Hero6 has a real advantage and a good chance of succeeding where they failed.

[PHattiE]

And I have little doubt that some of our playtesters will find themselves interested in the available backstory in Hero6 while others may choose to ignore it and skip thru most conversations. Making the game suitable of both types of player will require a careful balance of necessary talk vs necessary action in the game.

I don't know if I agree with this concept.  QFG1 had almost no backstory.  It was about brigands that were taking a stronghold on the valley, and a hero trying to become someone.  That was it.  I didn't have to read about the politics of the town, or read about a demon that emerged 500 years ago, which caused x to happen, causing y to happen, then z, 1,2 and 3 to happen.  Don't bore me like that.  It's too complex.  Backstory is only good if it adds mystery.  QFG1 and Erana for example:  Who was this Erana, and why does she have a garden?  The backstory only adds more mystery, but it's not related to the main quest.  I never skipped the conversations in QFG1 either.  I might not have exhausted all conversational paths, but if I have to skip something out of boredom, it greatly destroys the atmosphere of the game.  Perhaps someone will appreciate that level of detail, but I think the general audience would be turned off by it.

So yes, while I feel your points about a story are valid and even crucial, I feel that in the case of Hero6, which is built on the concept of QFG, they may not apply as much.

I whole heartily disagree with this statement.  An adventure game is first and foremost about story.  The action and RPG sequences were barely meaningful in the QFG games.  They added a mortality and seriousness to the quest for herodom, but I don't think they were necessary.  You could take them out, and QFG would still be good.  Learning about the inhabitants of QFG was the fun part, as was exploring and seeing how your accomplishments changed things.  But maybe I am a different brand of gamer.  Because now days, if I replay QFG, I just cheat my way to the top so I don't have to hassle with it.  I don't know, maybe some people like typing "throw rock" 500 times to max their stats.  I just don't understand the satisfaction.


Second:  Well written man.

[deltamatrix]

Mystery is a very good point and I believe that to have been one of the flaws of the older Hero6 design. A complex backstory was boring to read, hard to write and left little room for mystery. I remember trying to read old plot designs a couple years and found myself bored wonder how much of it is truly relevant. I wanted to get on making the main game and thats wot we can doing now. Hero6 will have some backstory but how much of how little will not be finalized for a while yet. We do have currently hav one minor puzzle which requires the reading of a short book to solve so some backstory involved there.

[Paladin0707077]

<QUOTE> We do have currently hav one minor puzzle which requires the reading of a short book to solve so some backstory involved there. </QUOTE>

Oh NOS! We haz to readz the bookzes! Oh no, my brain (cell) is meltiiiiiiiiing...!
(lol) Hey, having to read sometimes can help to further the plot, even enhancing the game as a result if it's done right and with moderation (remake of King's Quest 2 or Myst, anyone?) I think the point is that if that's ALL the game is - reading dialogue and backstory at huge stretches at a time (Xeno series) - Then that can have a very poor effect on the game's reception and the player's long term interest.
One (or even several) puzzles which require real reading = good. Making the whole GAME about reading = bad.

[Blackthorne519]

To see this forum sparsely populated makes me sad;  it makes me recall a time when it was booming, and teeming with hope.

Actually, a lot of the adventure game website forums are a lot less populated than they were just a few years ago.


Bt

[deltamatrix]

Those were the days 

How do we solve this problem? Trouble is, QFG and other Sierra games aren't likely to attract many new fans so once people move on, the communities will probably die. Just about all hero6 developers now got job commitments including myself although I still commit some time to workin on Hero6 which is still going.

We will hopefully start updating the news feed soon.