Hero6 Forums

Here's an idea. It was easy enough for people to make mock-QFG1 games right? And Tierra (or whatever they call themselves these days ;)) is making a QFG2 remake?

Someone should organize a project to re-make QFG4. That way we could actually play it on our new-fangled "pentium" computers. That... would be sweet as all get out. Maybe have some new additions to the game here and there just to make it extra interesting, like say... somthing to do with all the random treasure you pick up.

Anyway, just a thought.
-Evan

I don't know... it would be kind of extremely difficult to remake QFGIV and do it better than before without serious legal complications.  There was a lot done right there.  Replacing the top notch voice acting would be one of them, since you couldn't use the audio from the original.

As for playing QFGIV on your new-fangled Pentium... try using DOSBox (http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/).

Why couldn't you use the audio from the original you could require the CD to be in the drive for it, I guess there'd still be the legal issues tho.

Dosbox is really looking good these days for some games. However it is very unoptimized, it will make your P4 run like a 486, because a 486 is as fast as a P4 can make Dosbox run! ;)

If it doesn't work as desired, try some of these SCI timer fixes. Time fixes (http://www.geocities.com/belzorash/)

Only has QFG4CD version though.


Other useful sierra compatibility stuff (http://sierra.happy-land.ca/)

Over here you can grab several fixed SCI display drivers that are susposed to outright eliminate timer issues(and give you proper speed animations to boot!).

I was able to win QG4CD, full voice, no bugs (even had flaming sword animations!) on my pentium 4, no problems.  (Okay I used dosbox).

Remake would be extremely simple with exclusion of the voices.   One could port it to AGS in about a month.  Then to make small little additions here and there:  well I would just make the thing open source and let people contribute little additions, and then if their additions did the game justice, compile it in with the others and release it in the next build.

 

...oh, but if sierra's legal department still had a heart beat, you could find yourself in some deep trouble.  Then again, Tierra (or whatever they call themselves these days  :D) is remaking QG2, which is almost as bad and they seem to be getting away with it.

Sierra's dead, but Vivendi's legal dept. is still alive and kicking.

Lol why is Tierra getting away with QFG2? Maybe Vivendi knows about it, and they feel it isn't a big enough deal?

maybe I'm a little out of it, but Vivendi acquired the rights to sierra's old games?

Well I assume they did, but I don't know for sure. :)

You really don't know with Legal Departments... they might suddenly just decide one day that it's best to start cracking down on fangames.  If I remember correctly, something like that happened to the Lucas Arts fangame community.

So, you really never know when they'll try to drop the hammer. ;)

And yeah, I'm almost positive Vivendi owns the rights to everything that Sierra owned the rights to, since they owned Sierra before they decided to shut it down.

They've actually had them ever since they bought Sierra. Since they owned Sierra, they owned their intellectual property. In fact, I don't think Sierra's had their own legal department for years. I recall some legal hassle with unauthorized online services with Blizzard's Starcraft series a while back and it was VU who was tending to it, not Blizzard itself. I doubt Sierra was a different case.



First of all, I'm rather unfamiliar with the exact structure of the SCI language, so feel free to use this against me if you wish, but I believe the SCI language differs in some aspects from the way AGS-games are coded. (SCI is object orientated, for a start) Assuming you had full access to the original code, it'd probably chafe about 2 or 3 months off the entire process. It's more likely that you'd simply end up recoding all scenes in the game from scratch, only using the info from the game as a references as far as skill requirements for certain tasks are involved. Direct porting doesn't sound like a realistic option to me.

I estimate recoding the game in AGS would take you somewhere between 10 and 14 months, assuming you'd spend about 5 hours a day on average on it. Due to NewRisingSun's Timer patches, nobody in the right mind would waste his time on that sort of undertaking, however, as his fixes already eliminate the choke points where Pentium machines cripple gameplay.

(http://members.chello.nl/c.vanempel/Nashum.jpg)

10-14 months?  are you mad?  :)  Maybe one month is pushing it, but I guess that depends on how many hours you put in a day.

Let's look at the process:  

1- collect images of backgrounds and sprites (screen capture/rip).  3-5 days.
2- bring in backgrounds into ags.  1 day
3- tie backgrounds together and add clipping + boundrys.  2 days
4- create menu system/interface. 1 day
5- script "look" actions on each screen.  5 days??
6- bring in sprite with walk/run/sneak. 1 day
7- bring in character sheet. 1-2 days
8- script game logic/puzzles.  5-10 days
9- script time engine (puzzles available after x days, day to night, etc).  3 days
10- Inventory.  1 day
11- NPC + dialogue.  8 days.
12- bring in all sprites
13- Fight sequences ???? (can ags do this? if so, heavy script involved)
...

Okay, so there would be sticky parts, but you could definately get the bulk done in a month (minus the fight sequences).   AGS is as easy as breathing man.  Everything is done for you, you just got to script it all together.  Maybe it would take a complete beginner 10-14 months, but trust me, if you knew ags, and you knew a thing or two about building games, a month is not that far off.

I programmed a town scene to QG4 in a week, and that was 95% coding in C++, and the other 5% screen capturing and modifing the sprites to work.  (I got a demo for proof if you want it ;)).

 

AGDInteractive isn't so hard to remember, is it? :P

Personally, I think if someone made a QfGIV remake, that it should be AGDI(or someone that was able to work together with them). One of the best things about the QfG series, was importing game characters, and if different groups made them, they wouldn't be able to include the feature(unless the groups were willing to work together).

P.S. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Bah! Who needs a remake when you have the mighty DOSBox on your side?

People that don't own the originals? :P

There's always eBay   :D   *starts worshiping eBay*

And don't forget warez!!! :D Although, I'd personally consider QFG4 abandonware.

Striker, Hero6 does not support abandonware, and as you are fully aware (since this issue has popped up a number of times) copywrite lasts for at least 75 years and since QFG4 is not 75 years old it doesn't get classified as abandonware.

If any readers are considering obtaining a copy of QFG4 or any other QFG game, please visit eBay and bid in an appropriate auction.

they need to change the definition of abandonware to mean software that has been.. well, abandoned. :)  In that case, I'd consider QG4 abandonware too.

And as an ethical issue, I don't see how paying some chump trying to make money off ebay benefits the creators of QG4, or have any other positive benefit to classic gaming.  I don't know what the big deal about "copyright expiration" is either.  Yeh, it's technically illegal to distribute, but it's not like you're tampering with intellectual property...  all you're doing is playing a game that, if it were released today, wouldn't even have much success as freeware.  

Though, my personal opinion is that if you like a game, you ought to buy it simply for sentimental reasons.  Once I get a house, I'm gonna buy a nice bookshelf so I can put all my classic games on it.  You should see my Sierra collection.  It's quite big :)

/over 90% of the games I own are '94 or older  

Well Hero6 might not, but I do.  It's not like I'd ever point anyone to any place that has that might have that stuff :P  Besides, those ebay copies have been known to be damaged or in only half-working condition.  Take for example Brass's QFG anthology she bought off ebay, the QFG3 and 4 installs were corrupted.

I've purchased QFG 2-5, KQ 3-8, and quite a few other games from eBay and they've all arrived in perfect working condition.

Same here.  Purchased many other games as well in great condition.  

Totally agree with Phattie.

I am always shocked when I see people who treat abandonware like warez, I can never imagine how someone can hold such a belief.

I think alot of forums just discourage talk of abandonware to cover their asses. Since Pwincess is an admin, she must protect the forum by discouraging abandonware. :)

Ebay has those satisfaction ratings for a reason. B)


If you made a game, and stopped supporting it after 5-10 years, and later decided to start selling it again... wouldn't you have a problem with the game(that you own) you're trying to sell, being owned by people that never payed for it(sounds like stolen property to me)?

but then again... I guess that those who don't care if the games start being sold/made again (by owners that find the game still has a market), won't buy their's legit. ;)  

All rank and privileges aside, there are still principles at stake.  I can't stand the idea of piracy.  I should clarify the difference between ?abandonware? and piracy.  My boyfriend bought the original copy and the expansion of Hidden and Dangerous approximately six years ago when it was released, however recently the company which produced the game have now made it publicly available for download.  In this situation, Hidden and Dangerous Deluxe (original game + expansion) is now classified as ?abandonware?.  This is not the case for QFG or KQ.  Since QFG and KQ have not been made publicly available by Sierra, they cannot be regarded as ?abandonware?, and thus anybody downloading these games from other sites are participating in the piracy process.  

If Sierra were to re-release the QFG or KQ series and charge double their original price (and I didn't own the games) I would immediately purchase them because I know that I am supporting the original creators, thus assisting Sierra/the original creators to make more sequels to these games.

In the case of games which are no longer supported by companies, people should still purchase these ?pre-loved? games through eBay, since just because the games are not new, it doesn?t mean that you shouldn?t pay for the goods.

Look at it this way:  we live on a pineapple farm and regularly have people stopping by and stealing one or two pineapples.  What people don't realise is that even though they are only taking one or two pineapples, in the over all scheme, hundreds of pineapples are being stolen from the farm each year.  It's exactly the same with computer games, music, etc.

Whether people are stealing one pineapple, two pineapples, or 2000 pineapples, theft is still theft.

I wouldn't be mad because those people who own it illegally didn't deprive me of any revenue during those 5-10 years. Now once the game was on the market again, I'd prefer people to buy it, but I kinda doubt whether people buy it or not would make a big impact on my finances. I couldn't charge alot for it, and there wouldn't be a big market for it. Also, many people would simply have no idea that this game was still available for sale.

Also, how often does this happen? It seems like most  abandonware games ARE abandonware, and their authors haven't bothered to start selling them again.




Are you absoloutely sure you are supporting the original creators? Just because Sierra owns the rights, doesn't mean they are paying the original creators(especially when alot of them probably don't even work there anymore).




There is a difference between legal and moral definitions(to me at least). Even if Hidden and Dangerous wasn't made into abandonware, pirating it would be nothing like pirating it 6 years ago. Why do you think they made it abandonware? Not enough people were buying it.



Sorry Pwincess, this logic seriously baffles me. It's not about being old, it's about there being no original creators to give money to, or at least no company who owns the rights to give money to. Furthermore, there is only so many physical copies to go around. Many people probably wouldn't bother to put their unwanted ancient games on Ebay. If games are traded digitally, they can reach many more people, and they are far more likely to live on.


Not exactly. See you probably live on a small pineapple farm, but the game, music, and movie makers operate these gigantic super pineapple farms. :)

Also, these gigantic farms don't sell every single pineapple they own, and end up throwing out some of their pineapples because of it. However, they will claim that every pineapple that was stolen was going to be sold at the market. :D

Here's a starting list. B)

Return to Krondor=game makers made it freeware(minus the enhanced CD soundtrack)

Hidden and Dangerous: Deluxe(like Pwincess said)

Zork1-3(I believe they're freeware, but I'd have to check online to be sure)

Arena(the first game, in the Elder Scrolls/Morrowind series)

I won't start on all the freeware remakes/updates which are better than the originals(I consider Pingus better than Lemmings, as an example).

Then, while not freeware, these games were made for sell by PCgamer. These games are a package deal(and come with a magazine).

Kings Quest 1(original, not remake)
The Secret of Monkey Island(first in the series)
Need for Speed1(better than some/many of the sequels)
Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss
X-com: UFO Defense
Ultima 1: The First Age of Darkness
Wing Commander(I consider it the prequel to Freelancer)
Alone in the Dark1
Duke Nukem II(the 2D game, kinda like Commander Keen)
Descent(one of the first internet games to catch on)
Links: The Challenge of Golf


I also THINK they are selling Monkey Island2, at great cost(almost $50 US)

Note
Since I don't subscribe to PCgamer anymore, their policy might have changed in the last few months(assuming it hasn't, these games and more, are available in a back issue of PCgamer, last time I checked $30 US).

P.S. If anyone wants links, or a larger list(in a new thread), just ask(assuming it's okay with Hero6). :)

Shread my post as much as you want Lazy, since legally, if you do obtain illegal copies of games, music, etc, and are busted, you will be slapped with a nice fine or time in prison.

Btw, there is a difference between morals and the law, however we need to abide by the law in this society.

And Lazy, we don't keep every pineapple, the rotten ones get thrown out.

Louisana Night it seems like you are listing games that were made freeware. I was wondering about games that haven't been sold for years being made for sale again.  

That PCgamer bundle list is a good example though. The point I'm trying to make is that even if there are incidents of games being sold again after many years, there is hundreds of games that are still not being resold.



I am well aware this stuff is not legal. Actually in Canada...

http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5182641.html (http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5182641.html)


So if people are susposed to get busted and charged/fined for piracy, why did the RIAA launch all those lawsuits? Obviously the federal government of the US wasn't doing enough to catch those dastardly pirates...




The idea is that we never let law totally determine all of our morals.  Although I suppose laws are often formed due to morals, and morals are often formed due to laws.

But Pwincess- You and I both know that old Sierra games would not sell on todays market.  Even FREEWARE games are higher quality.  Sierra has no chance of releasing them again even if Mr Millionaire CEO of Sierra wanted to make an extra buck or two.  Sierra has even been THROWING AWAY original art & material from the games.  Last I heard, they don't have a single piece of original work from their haydays.

I'll even go as far as to say abandonware HELPs the old games.  Anyone willing to stoop low enough to go download and play outdated games are going to be even more likely to purchase the games if for some miracle they are re-released as enhanced versions.  Besides, do you really think modern gamers are going out and looking for free older games to play that don't really even run on their machines?  no.  Those older games wouldn't even last a minute on today's attention spans.

Abadonware is like the life line for a lot of these games.  Hell, I even forgot about a lot of old games until I went to an abandonware site and was reminded of their one-time existance.

So morally, I see no conflict with abandonware whatsoever.  Though, I agree that companies have the right to protect their work no matter how old it is. If a company asks people to stop downloading their old material, I think it is in our best interest to respect it.

The fact that we are talking about this here is extremely hypocrtical anyway.  I would say that it is more damning for fan communities to REMAKE older games and release them freely then to simply redistribute the original work.  Yet, despite the completely illegal nature of fan-made remakes, they are well recieved and freely talked about inside these forums.  Imagine an old book.  Now imagine me retyping it, enhancing it, and adding illustrations and then releasing it freely in PDF format.  Isn't that more damaging to the author than had I went to kinkos and xerox'd it?
 

I'm guessing you don't have Wal-Marts where you live. ;)
Examples of old games being re-released, and selling fairly well
Sega Smash Pack(20+ classic Sega games)
Need for Speed Collection(over a half-dozen different NfS games)
The Myst collections(at least the first three games, often on DVD)
Sonic Adventure:DX(over a dozen Sonic games, only one of which is 3D)
Megaman collections(not PC, some with NES level graphics)
Street Fighter collections(not PC)
Baulders Gate collections
The Sims collections XD

In other words, one game might not sell, but in a package deal, they tend to sell quite well.

P.S. Most of those collections/package deals, have been made compatible with new OSs. B)


I'm going to forget about the "free" part, and go straight to retail games. :)

Let's look at these genres(niche market, but the higher cost of these games, helps make up for part of it), shall we?

Flight Sims(though there are many new flight sims, people are STILL buying the classics, like Falcon4.0)

Driving Sims(same as Flight Sims)

RPGs(you've never heard of Geneforge)  ;)

Besides, if you setup DOSbox to do things automaticly, there's a VERY good chance it will work, with almost  no hassle.  B)

Note
Most of these old games, are a pain to get working on new hardware/software(Geneforge2 is a new game, with VERY old style graphics).


and the death of many others...


You're comparing someone, that spends months/years making a game, to someone that simply copies another person's months/years of work? ;)

None of the games you mentioned fit inside the time frame of "abandonware" except for perhaps Sega Smash Pack, but you are comparing apples and oranges.  Console games are remarketable because the console concept is pretty much un-changing.  A gameboy advanced handheld console, for example, still does not surpass the Sega Genesis hardware specs despite the 10 year gap.

I should also remind you that despite the fact that Sierra released multiple "game packs" of their adventure games (Kings Quest collectors edition, etc), they did not sell well, and that was at a time when their games still ran smoothly on the then-current hardware and their graphics weren't grossly out of date.   And even at that time, these packaged games were cheaper than other games on the market (I bought Kings Quest and Space Quest collectors for $35)

Sure, but you can not sell a product that relies on a 3rd party vendor to run.  Your sim analogy is also false.  The top 10 sim games have all been modern games.  In fact some of the modern Microsoft flight sims have been selling very well for the genre.

Examples?  My understanding of "Abandonware" is that the games fitting that description are already dead.

Yup.  What does that have to do with legalities/moral values?  If in 10 years harry potter is out of print, and I spend 1 year retyping it in PDF format, another year illustrating it, and then releasing it, doesn't that still count as infringement regardless of my long aching efforts?  Aren't I still taking someone elses work and distributing it without the owner's consent?  Wouldn't my free illustrated and printable download be more appealing than paying money for an old book on ebay?   Wouldn't it effect future sales if the company decided to reprint it?  

Now let's look at the alternative:  Let's say I did a xerox copy of hary potter for my friend because it was out of print and he didn't want to buy it on ebay.  What he gets is a bunch of poor-quality, loose paper sheets to read through.   That thing isn't gonna last long before it's trashed (probably trashed after he's done reading it).  He may still be interested in buying the book because the alternative isn't as attractive.  But had I done a PDF remake with illustrations, perhaps the idea of buying the book wouldn't be as appealing... or even more possibly:  perhaps the desire to buy the book wouldn't be strong enough to actually motivate him to buy the original anymore.